A few Questions !!

[smudgersmith218]

Gents

Had a very interesting conversation with a steel rep who supplies my workshop. He noted the 218 Squadron crest and we started talking about Bomber Command and the RAF in general. To my surprise he knew a lot about the RAF but specifically the RFC. We talked about 218 in the Great War and all things RAF. I finally managed to steer the conversation towards Bomber Command, it was during this that I was asked two questions he wanted my opinion on.

1) What was the most daring and difficult bombing (logistically / opposition) operation flown by the Allies in Europe during the war?
2) What was the most challenging period the crews of Bomber Command faced and the reason why?

After an hour and a £3000 order for stainless steel he departed, he promised the next time he visits to bring in his grandfathers WW1 photographs, he was a observer on FB2’s (?)

[Nocturna mors]

Hi Steve,

1) What was the most daring and difficult bombing (logistically / opposition) operation flown by the Allies in Europe during the war?

The early war daylight attacks carried out by Battles, Blenheims, Wimpys against Bridges,Shipping etc were very daring if not suicidal
The Dams raid is the one that takes some beating,.... or my particular favourite,...The Augsburg raid, low level,... in daylight....in a Lanc

Opposition wise,....i would plump for the Dortmund Ems canal. moon light raids against a very heavily defended target. Bomber command had to revisit this numerous times to knock out this vital transport link. The Germans carried out repairs quickly and knew the RAF would be back hence the number of flak positions. The canal was well camouflaged from the air so, the RAF attacked in moonlight using the reflection of moon on the canal. Attacking in moon lit conditions gave the bombers little protection against night fighters or flak.

Logistically,......the North Africa shuttle raids against Italian targets.

2) What was the most challenging period the crews of Bomber Command faced and the reason why?

After the Luftwaffe reorganized themselves following the advent of window. I guess it would be the Battle of Berlin period, distances flown,..the appalling weather,...the PFF decimated,...over 500 bombers lost and the withdrawal of the Stirling and early Mks of Halifax!

Rgds Tom

[halifax1]

I would go with the early daylight raids in obsolete aircraft and poor navigation systems and many inexperienced crews followed by those at night over Essen for example where navigation was extremely difficult, targets hard to find and see and predictable flack - in short organised chaos? But honestly most raids had their difficulties and dangers from one "hazard" or another except perhaps towards the end when there was more control of the sky over Germany when loss rates began to improve.

[K4KittyCrew]

Worst Time Period for Crews

I tend to agree with Tom and David regarding the 'earlier operations' but then considered the period just before and during the Berlin Raids , thereafter.
Having recently read several books on that time frame and looked at the volume of men loss during the last quarter of 1943 to the end of the first quarter 1944, I was thinking that this period was the toughest.

I then cross-examined my thoughts with Chorleys Bomber Command Losses. !944 is the largest volume, closely followed by 1943.

Consider this if you will.

With the very earliest raids, the RAF / crews, were flying on a wing and a pray ............... they had little experience and technology and it showed. Losses were bad.
Fast forward to late 1943 / early 1944 ................ much improved aircraft, much improved technology ..................... yet their losses were even greater!

That's my two-bobs worth.
John

[smudgersmith218]

John,

Thanks for the reply, for me the following ;


1) American low level raid on the Ploiesti oil plants in Romania in August 1943. Purely for the distance flown and the defences encounterd. 173 B24 aircraft dispatched, 53 aircraft lost.

2) The period I personally feel was the most challenging for the crews of Bomber Command was between November 1943- March 1944, during the debacle of the Berlin Campaign. Due to the heavy losses especially amongst the PFF, weather conditions, issues with marking and bombing results, the bravery of the aircrews! *


* will not get started about this bloody period

Smudger

[PAFG]

Hi Steve, You know my views here - Berlin is a costly tragedy. Bennett said the two times he saw crews really shaken was the Essen campaign in early '42 and the Berlin campaign. This was not just about casualties, but about the way they were throwing lives for no aprreciable gain.

Nothing new in those observations, but I thought I'd add some pictures to amplify them. First (I'm sure I've posted this before but not sure where) is the 5 loss rate through Harris's tenure, related to RCM developments. Two periods stand out - the Berlin campaign, and the short but very sharp spike around D-Day:

Signal History Vol VII - RCM p62.jpg (65.9 KiB) Viewed 3942 times

Signal History Vol VII - RCM p61.jpg (58.63 KiB) Viewed 3942 times

The second picture is a graph from Harris's Last Despatch and gives a stark representation of the impact of Bomber Command's offensive in terms of tonnages delivered - the first 100,000 tons taking from Sep 1939 to May 1943, the second 100,000 tons from May to Sep 43 etc. Nothing I've seen illustrates the huge growth of Bomber Command and how this only really kicks in from Spring 1943. I added other information over the original graph for a presentation I gave last year, but the graph itself is the real message here:

RBL Pres 6 Apr 2011.jpg (69.19 KiB) Viewed 3942 times

Cheers,

Richard

[smudgersmith218]

Hi Richard,

Great post, thanks for sharing.

I have spoken to a few crews from No.218 Squadron who were operational during this period and they put their survival down to the fact that the squadron was not operating against Berlin during the campaign. One senior pilot on the squadron who had already completed a tour before assuming flight commander duties recalled that the various 3 Group off duty watering holes in Bury St Edmunds, Norwich etc etc were rather more boisterous and booze filed than normal for the few group squadrons that operated during this period. He put this down simply to one thing, Berlin.

I have somewhere a No.3 Group document dated early 1944 which discussed moral on the few squadrons from the group that operated, it makes sombre reading.

Cheers

Steve

[smudgersmith218]

Following on from my post yesterday concerning a flight commander on 218 squadron and his conclusion that his survival was due to his crew not being involved in the winter Berlin Campaign I dug out a copy of his war time dairy which I was sent along with some other personal items.

His crew did attack Berlin in September so he had first hand knowledge of the defences and problems:

December 20th 1943:

Leave at last, Christmas at home and back to reality.

December 26th

Went into Kings Lynn with the crew who all had a great leave, good to have the whole gang back together, I missed their company and moaning. The pubs were full of Yanks who can’t fly due to the duff weather. Bumped into Les literally and his crew, they are on lanc’s. He tells me that they have been to Berlin on 4 occasions and each time its worse than the previous trip. Flak and fighters are the norm, the crew look done in and the Wop is very jumpy, they were all plastered by 8pm. I arrange to met up with him again.

December 27th.

Crew not required, hang around mess.

I realise that one cannot come to any conclusion from a single dairy extract, however it is interesting that even by December the strain ( and I can only surmise ) it was strain was beginning to show on crews attacking Berlin.

[Nocturna mors]

....an account from "the Mighty Eighth"

Dreaded Merseburg.

It would take its toll in men and machines. Even more than Berlin, Munich, Hamburg, Kassel, Ludwigshaven. Or any of the others.
Merseburg, with its Leuna refinery, was an oil target. And ultimately, it was this denial of refined petroleum products that would be so instrumental in ending Hitler’s pursuit of world domination.

The 398th went to Merseburg eight times. Six times there were empty spaces at the hardstands when the group came home.
A ring of 400 anti-aircraft guns, twice the number protecting Berlin, had been brought into the Merseburg refinery corridor in a desperate attempt to protect Germany’s dwindling petroleum supply.

It was on November 21, 1944 that the 398th, especially the 603rd Squadron, would feel the full impact of this ring of protection. This was the day the German radio would beam the news toward England that Goering’s elite FW-190 fighter group, known to American airmen as the “Abbeville Gang,” had destroyed an entire squadron of B-17’s from the 398th Bomb Group!
“We got them all,” was the boast, reminding his listeners that the planes shot down carried a Triangle W on their tail.
The famed Luftwaffe fighters with the yellow spinners – plus four 20mm cannons – had found a lone, scattered, separated 603rd groping in the 9/10th weather. The Abbeville boys claimed the entire squadron. It wasn’t quite true, but almost.

“Where are the rest?” asked Col. Frank P. Hunter, 398th commanding officer, as he approached Lt. Warren Johnson, leader of the three-ship “squadron” as they returned to Station 131 more than eight hours after taking off that morning.
“There are no ‘rest’,” answered Johnson, as he identified his two wingmen, Lt. Ernie Spitzer and Lt. Harold Spangler.
At that point, completely spent after their long ordeal and narrow escape from fighters and flak, the trio was certain they were the only survivors of the day’s mission to Merseburg.

From here http://www.398th.org/History/Articles/R ... eburg.html

Tom