Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

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Lancaster
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Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by Lancaster »

Can anyone help please regarding the crash landing of a Stirling on 26 September 1944, in which my uncle Flight Sergeant Ronald Quiney was navigator.

My uncle was coming to the end of his training at 1661 HCU at RAF Winthorpe. The flying log books of the flight engineer & wireless operator of the crew indicate that on 26 September 1944, they took off at 09:05 to carry out an exercise in cross country & air-sea firing. The captain was Flight Sergeant McIntosh & each log book states “2 engined crash landing” & gives a flying time of 3:40. The two log books unfortunately record different aircraft registration numbers for the incident – one states LK716 (F) & the other states LK573, so presumably one of them must have noted the wrong number.

The crew completed their training at 1661 HCU so there were no fatalities but there may have been injuries. They went on to serve with 106 Squadron at RAF Metheringham but sadly were killed in action on 14 January 1945.

Does anyone have any information about this incident please (eg the history and fate of this aircraft or the crash landing referred to above including where it occurred, what caused it and under what circumstances)?

Thanks in anticipation of someone’s help.
Researching Bomber Command crew F/Off D R McIntosh RAAF, Sgt F A Kendall RAF, F/Sgt R A Quiney RAF, F/Sgt R H Thomson RAF, F/Sgt W H Butt RAAF, Sgt G Fletcher RAF, Sgt D S Ford RAF. All KIA 14 January 1945 serving with 106 Squadron, RAF Metheringham.

jamesinnewcastle
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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by jamesinnewcastle »

Hi Lancaster

You sent me an email but there was no reply address and nothing in my account on here so I'll answer in the forum.

Can I assume that this is your first foray into tracking down RAF history? I'll assume it is and also others will know what level of detail to hit you with!

Your first port of call would be the Squadrons Operational Records Books. This is essentially the Squadrons 'diary of events', you already have the crews (which is really good - so often log books are lost - most were burned by the MOD as they had 'no room' at the end of the war, all those cluttered hangers......) The ORB is in on two different forms one shows each operational flight, who went, aircraft number, time in and time out, etc. The other is a sort of 'what went on at the aerodrome', so there might be details of a medal ceremony, new aircraft deliveries, enemy attacks, etc. The ORBs can be gotten from The National Archives, you might be lucky to find they have converted them to downloadable files or someone on this site may cram them into your hands!

Next call at the RAFM for the AM1180 (I think - I'm at work and can't access my records). This form will be a short report of the accident and have mainly the essential details - get them to copy both sides of it! The AM1180 will show a number relating to another form kept by The Air Historic Branch, can't remember the number (AM75?) but this will have a little more info if they still have it, they won't copy it for you - insist on them transcribing all the information. As the crash was in the UK and not on service there would have been a Court of Inquiry (or similar term, can't remember now). This would be for a full accident investigation!! Excited? Don't be, most of these were also burned as the MOD had no room for those either! Some still exist, but you will be lucky if yours is among them! The accident reports I put up just 'happened' to be at TNA, I was just searching on the word 'Stirling' when I came across them.

Next ask the same question on as many forums as you can. I'm sure you will get more help on here too! I'll fill this out a bit later. I'm no real expert so there may well be other avenues open to you. Good Luck!


Cheers
James

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by Lancaster »

Thanks James, much appreciated.

Look forward to seeing if anyone else can help.
Researching Bomber Command crew F/Off D R McIntosh RAAF, Sgt F A Kendall RAF, F/Sgt R A Quiney RAF, F/Sgt R H Thomson RAF, F/Sgt W H Butt RAAF, Sgt G Fletcher RAF, Sgt D S Ford RAF. All KIA 14 January 1945 serving with 106 Squadron, RAF Metheringham.

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by K4KittyCrew »

Hello Lancaster ( don't know your name ?)
Welcome to our friendly forum.

These details come from Chorleys RAF Bomber Command Losses ( HCU ) Heavy Conversion Units & Miscellaneous Units 1939-1947

Page two is what you are looking for but I posted page one so you could see 'other' listing in and around those dates.

Cheers,
John

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K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by Lancaster »

Hello John,

Thanks for your reply, much obliged.

However, whilst the aircraft you point out was from 1661 HCU at RAF Winthorpe, it doesn’t seem to correspond with “my” crew’s crash landing because the incident in Chorley’s book was the day before, had a different serial number & the captain & crew were different (the incident I’m after was on 26 September 1944, the aircraft serial number was either LK716 (F) or LK573 & the captain was Flight Sergeant McIntosh).

The pages you copied into your reply cover both before & after 26 September so I’m mystified as to why “my” crew’s incident doesn’t show up. Can you think why it doesn’t appear in Chorley or where we might find reference to it (eg Operational Record Books or diaries of 1661 HCU, loss cards or accident record cards)?

Look forward to hearing from you or anyone who can throw any light on the puzzle.

Thanks,

Ronald
Researching Bomber Command crew F/Off D R McIntosh RAAF, Sgt F A Kendall RAF, F/Sgt R A Quiney RAF, F/Sgt R H Thomson RAF, F/Sgt W H Butt RAAF, Sgt G Fletcher RAF, Sgt D S Ford RAF. All KIA 14 January 1945 serving with 106 Squadron, RAF Metheringham.

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by K4KittyCrew »

Hi Ronald,

Ok, no worries. The pages supplied were before, during and after the 26th Sept 44, just to show you that no other aircraft was listed that may be relevant.
However ............ I am now looking at other Units which are separately listed by dates.

I have checked that the 'LK' series went from LK114 to LK624 ............... so no LK716 listed.

Records for LK573 state ........... ( conversion to Mk IV ) GP-F / 1661 HCU 23RD aPRIL 1944,
Flying Accident 25th July 1944, Flying Accident 26th September 1944, 6 Maintenance Unit 23rd November 1944,
Struck Off Charge 24th April 1945, 23 Maintenance Unit 13th June 1945, Struck Off Charge 5th June 1947.

Footnote - The only detail that seems odd is that it been twice SOC.
Details from The Stirling Story by MJF Bowyer ISBN 0 947554 91 2

Cheers,
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by Lancaster »

Hello John,

Thanks for your reply & for your diligence in tracking it down – seems to be a bit of a mystery!

So, if I understand correctly, the Stirling with serial number LK716 didn’t exist (so this serial number entered in the flight engineer’s Flying Log Book must have been an error, although the squadron code suffix “-F” which he noted seems to be correct but actually relates to LK573) but the Stirling with serial number LK573 (as noted in the wireless operator’s Flying Log Book) did exist &, according to Bowyer’s “The Stirling Story”, was at 1661 HCU & was subject to a flying accident on 26 September 1944, so this appears to be the crash landing incident referred to in the Flying Log Books.

A few thoughts:
1. Does Bowyer contain any further information about the incident, over & above that listed in your reply?
2. Where might I be able to find further information about the incident (presumably 1661 HCU’s ORB’s or the relevant Accident Record Card, as mentioned by James on 15 January - anywhere else?)?
3. I wonder why the incident doesn’t appear in Chorley’s “Bomber Command Losses (HCU) Heavy Conversion Units & Miscellaneous Units 1939-1947”?
4. Agree with your comment that it seems odd that it was struck off charge twice.

The families of the crew are keen to know as much about their relatives as possible so I’m grateful to you for your help. I see that you are located on the Gold Coast in Queensland, Australia & you may be interested to know that two of the crew were “Aussies” – the captain/pilot was Flight Sergeant Donald McIntosh RAAF from Kyogle, New South Wales & the wireless operator was Flight Sergeant Warren Butt RAAF from Earlwood (Sydney), New South Wales.

Look forward to hearing from you (or anyone else!).

Thanks,

Ronald
Researching Bomber Command crew F/Off D R McIntosh RAAF, Sgt F A Kendall RAF, F/Sgt R A Quiney RAF, F/Sgt R H Thomson RAF, F/Sgt W H Butt RAAF, Sgt G Fletcher RAF, Sgt D S Ford RAF. All KIA 14 January 1945 serving with 106 Squadron, RAF Metheringham.

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by AlanW »

Ronald,
The answer to question 3, as to why Chorley did not record it, is because Chorley only records aircraft that are written off through combat or accident. As LK573 was not written off, but went to a maintenance unit for repair. it is not included in his volume.
Alan.
There is no paralell in warfare, to such courage and determination in the face of danger, over so long a period. Such devotion, should never be forgotten.

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by Lancaster »

Alan,

Thanks for that, it clarifies that point.

Ronald
Researching Bomber Command crew F/Off D R McIntosh RAAF, Sgt F A Kendall RAF, F/Sgt R A Quiney RAF, F/Sgt R H Thomson RAF, F/Sgt W H Butt RAAF, Sgt G Fletcher RAF, Sgt D S Ford RAF. All KIA 14 January 1945 serving with 106 Squadron, RAF Metheringham.

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Re: Short Stirling Crash Landing 26 September 1944

Post by jamesinnewcastle »

Oddly enough

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... earch-aids

A gent on this site has just put up a guide on his web site which may help in steering you. Interesting bit on ORBs and he actually states that individual log books could vary!


James

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