Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

[K4KittyCrew]

Hi Lazio and welcome to the forum.

To answer your question regarding serial numbers and why they changed from aircraft to aircraft ............ ( other members may offer a varied view of such )

Say a Stirling was built and designated to 7 Squadron. This aircraft may have been involved in a incident where it was not written off but needed some repairs done to it.
Instead of returning the aircraft back to the same operational squadron, 'the powers that be' would move the aircraft to say, a training unit, say, 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit, for the crews to train on.

In short, any 'tired' aircraft would be shipped off to OTC's or HCU's and the 'better' / new aircraft would be sent as a replacement, to the designated operational squadron.
This was the RAF attempt to help the operational squadrons as much as they could with taking the war to Germany whilst the HCU's and alike, sometimes even Coastal Command, would receive the older, worn out aircraft.

In regards to your book, it is great to hear of your interest with the Short Stirling and we look forward to you making a post about the book, in the 'Book / DVD' section of the forum.
I look forward to hearing more from you, about your learnings of the aircraft and crews of Bomber Command.

Also, we have several members active in re-creating various sections of the Short Stirling and some of these members are also active in finding crash sites of fallen aircraft and crews.
There is a wealth of information on this forum, all you need is the time to digest it .......... not to mention that we have a great bunch of members who will help wherever they can.
Cheers,
John

[lazlo]

Thanks John.
I have been 'silently' reading this forum's posts for some time. With regard to the question: how do I found out what actually happened to aircraft that had the 'M' in the serial number. They appear still exist according to Michael Bowyer since there is no evidence of them having been SOC or anything else fatal. Of course this can't be true so there must be a record of their final fate somewhere. Do you know where?

[K4KittyCrew]

Hi lazlo,

OK, other members please correct me if I'm wrong and or, have a better response.

Would it be fair to say that an aircraft that had been removed from a squadron and shipped to another could be re-branded with a new serial number?
Probably in 99% of cases, there would only be a change of squadron codes and the serial number would stay the same. Hence, the reason you see in the book of an aircraft being moved from unit to unit.

However, I reasonably sure that 1% of aircraft went missing through a lack of records management, to say the least.
Also, if say, two damaged aircraft were used to make up one good aircraft, that aircraft may of been issued with a new serial number but only one serial number / aircraft was listed as scrapped in the records, because of it. It all comes down to how well records of events were kept.

If you think about the volume of aircraft coming into to Bomber Command, then moving back to OTC and HCU, also, they may have gone to Coast Command. I'm thinking this situation is like any other business scenario ............... thousands of 'products' being shipped to and fro, all over the country, over a 5 year period, many being lost, many being damaged, would it be fair to say that a small percentage is bound to go missing?

If you look at the number of errors in what happened to crew members, it can only be relevant the same to happen to aircraft. Anyway, that is my take on things.
John

[lazlo]

Hi John
I have been meaning to reply but life being what it is, I have been too busy.
Thanks for the long and detailed reply. While I am sure you're right that some went missing (1% might be a good figure) given that record keeping was not as good then as now, nevertheless there is something systematic about the fact that of all the aircraft redesignated with four numbers followed by 'M' (about 30 aircraft) only four are accounted for after that. These are:

EH995 SOC 19.7.45 as 4538M, allocation date uncertain
LJ952 became 5247M 12.5.45, SOC 12.3.46
PK121 became 5904M, SOC 15.5.47
One which was definitely scrapped after it was SOC but I can't find the record.

There certainly seems an element of your theory which rings true which is that they were reallocated for training purposes. These are two examples.
LJ818 - 5051M for use by 3 para brigade
LK603 - 5237M and used by 1st canadian Para Bat

There are others and some might have just been hulks because a fair number of them suffered undercarriage collapses or other serious damage before reallocation. Another thing supporting your theory is several examples which were PSO (Presumed struck off) or have a question mark next to the SOC date. As you say, records weren't so good then.

The fact that at least one does have a scrap date after SOC date is interesting. Am I right that the records quoted by Michael Bowyer are MOD records? If so, then I guess that the SOC date simply means they are no longer on active service for the RAF but might be used elsewhere. This is borne out by several which went to serve in overseas airways after the SOC date. This means basically there can be no assumption that each aircraft was scrapped immediately or soon after its SOC date.

The reasons I am so interested in these aircraft are twofold:

1. As a writer who likes to be historically accurate as far as I can be, I would like to use either serial numbers and squadron codes which are real examples or at least sound correct. Verisimilitude is vitally important to a writer. However I don't want to offend any living relatives so I have to be careful not to use an existing code of a real aircraft whose crew met their end in combat. I don't want to offend anyone. So for me its important to understand how all this worked and what happened to each aircraft if I can
2. There must be a record somewhere where these aircraft were Struck off Charge. It may be that there might be clues here for somebody looking for Stirling parts/airframes in local scrap yards. I know a scrap dealer and most scrap dealers just after the war would take what they thought somebody might want later and the junk just piles up. It may still be there 70 years later under a mountain of metal. I have no idea whether Stirlings were flown to some central depot for scrapping or broken down on site (seems unlikely) or scrapped locally to the airfield where they were based/crashed etc. Perhaps one of your members would know?

I have a more general question and let me know if I should post this elsewhere. I don't want to double-post but I am happy to if you wish: There is a nice image here of some Stirling (LK488) wreckage in RAF Museum Store at MOD Stafford:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/sho ... 2-10/page4
This seem to be fairly complete centre section although pretty mangled. I have often thought that if this part of a Stirling existed it would be a very good first step to rebuilding one. I know there is a mid-rear fuselage section in existance, and the photo below the one in the link above shows a good piece of tail section. So this all seems quite a good start to me. Why is nobody (the RAF or Hendon Museum etc) thinking about at least assembling what they have already?

One last question: there is a stirling which ditched in a Norwegian Fjord - this could be another good candidate for recovery as corrosion is usually minimal in such cold waters. I read somewhere years ago that this stirling was too deep to make it viable cost-wise. Is this still the case?
Thanks John. Hope somebody has some answers to my questions.

[AlanW]

Hi,
I've not heard of aircraft having new serial numbers issued before, and not having a copy of The Stirling Story, i wondered if it would be possible if you could scan the page from it, and either post it here, or send via email, so as i could see the information. As far as i'm aware, an individual aircraft serial, stayed with the aircraft and would not changed. If two damaged aircraft were used to make up one aircraft, that completed aircraft would still keep it's original serial number, whilst the other would be SOC.

[smudgersmith218]

Following on from Alans post.

I am certain that once a aircraft was issued with it’s own unique serial number it remained with the aircraft throughout it’s flying service. The only time I have heard of any change was when the aircraft or what was left of it become a instructional airframe or something similar.

I have the AM Form 78 Movement Cards for the Short Stirling in my collection, I will check the various serials this evening.

Regards

Smudger

[lazlo]

Thanks Smudger.

[smudgersmith218]

Hi

As I thought aircraft became instructional airframes.

Details below via AM Form 78 Movement Cards.

If required I can give details of the abbreviations.

Short Stirling Mk.III EH995 (4538M –cancelled)
Austin Motors
B982939/39

199 Sqdn 25.08.1943
CAT AC/FA 25.11.1943 (RoS/Sebro )
199 Sqdn 30.11.1943
CAT “B” 25.02.1943 (RiW/Sebro)
199 Sqdn 13.06.1943
Converted to Instructional Airframe 12.02.1944
CANCELLED 18.02.1944
Re CAT “E” 01.03.1944
SoC 01.03.1944
Re CAT “B” 25.08.1944
1657 CU 25.08.1944
6 MU 11.12.1944
SOC 10.07.1945
Flying Hours 136hrs 30 mins


Short Stirling Mk.IV LJ952 (5247M)
Short & Harland
A/C 2009/CH

6 MU 23.04.1944
620 Sqdn 14.05.1944
23 MU 26.04.1945
Converted to Instructional Airframe 12.05.1945
SoC 19.03.1946


Short Stirling Mk.V PK121 (5904M)
Short & Harland
A/C 2009/CH

51 Sqdn 28.06.1945
RAF Pocklington 20.02.1946
RAF St Anthan 28.03.1946
Converted to Instructional Airframe 28.03.1945
SoC 15.05.1947

Regards

Smudger

[lazlo]

Thanks Smudger. That's great and really clears up a mystery for me. I checked the book and it matches up with what you are saying. It's as John suspected too. I can be much more confident about choosing serials and squadron codes for my book. How did you come by these records? Is it from the National Archives? It only remains now to wonder where they were all scrapped. If anybody has any info on what the scrapping policy was of the RAF in the mid-1940s, I would be interested to know.

[Smiffy]

Afternoon all and Paul Denton in particular.

Reference Stirling BK654 and F/O Norris,

I was reading your post about F/O Norris and his intially aborted Hamburg raid 24/25th July 1943. My grandfather was his navigator and I have a copy of his nav log for the delayed but then successful raid on Hamburg, 29th of the same month, in front of me as I type. The detail is incredible. If any one is interested I will try to reproduce it somehow so you can read it.
Interestingly, he's recorded as F/Lt Norris by the 29th of July so maybe they were impressed that he got the crew and ship back in one piece the first time round. When I was very young my Grandpa told about dropping bombs into the sea if your plane was damaged and you had to turn back, I wonder if that was the trip he was refering to.

Best regards,

Smiffy.