Further interesting details from the book I'm reading viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1883
LMF was classified into four categories and that one particular suffered 4 crew members going LMF.
As pointed out, a crew member may have done twenty operations with say, the last one being extremely traumatic and causing the person to crack.
Extremely tough circumstances.
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
Who can define the word "coward" and attribute it to individuals, without knowing what what the hell is going on in their minds. I've always had an issue with the"LMF" tag on airmen, who for no fault of their own, cracked, under extreme circumstances. I'm dammed sure, that knowing what they went through, almost night after night, i would be scared witless. Just as with the soldiers of WW1, deemed as cowards, and executed, by the sheer ignorance of the time, of what the effects of battle could do to the minds of those taking part. And, as the WW1 victims of so called cowardice, have recently been pardoned, i think it's also time to look at the LMF cases, and have the stigma removed from them also.
There is no paralell in warfare, to such courage and determination in the face of danger, over so long a period. Such devotion, should never be forgotten.
AlanW wrote:Who can define the word "coward" and attribute it to individuals, without knowing what what the hell is going on in their minds. I've always had an issue with the"LMF" tag on airmen, who for no fault of their own, cracked, under extreme circumstances. I'm dammed sure, that knowing what they went through, almost night after night, i would be scared witless. Just as with the soldiers of WW1, deemed as cowards, and executed, by the sheer ignorance of the time, of what the effects of battle could do to the minds of those taking part. And, as the WW1 victims of so called cowardice, have recently been pardoned, i think it's also time to look at the LMF cases, and have the stigma removed from them also.
Totally agree with you, Alan
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
Thank goodness we live in an enlightened age where the stresses, strains and bravery of our armed forces are recognised and acknowledged, though I can clearly remember the debate that ensued after the first Iraqi war and the syndrome that existed in many veterans. All that hopefully is beyond doubt now.
Max
We cannot put ourselves in the place of others - simply that. As to today well again it is very much up to the individual and his/her composition. I am a little concerned that there is a slight chance that todays stance on the traumas suffered may encourage feeling to give. After the South Atlantic we had some fellows who were accosted in a pub in `Portsmouth. They were approached by some apparently well meaning people who offered to buy them a drink in recognition of what they had done for England etc. Having got a conversation going they then began subtly to introduce comment about did they really feel right about killing people and joining the army etc. etc. It was all rather cleverly done - almost a form of the old fashioned brainwashing. One chap was a little affected but his chums took care of him. During WWII there were groups - one led by Vera Brittain who condemned our activities but from the safety of these shores and in the Countryside.
A chap with whom I worked did a couple of tours (Stirlings Wimpys Lancasters) and got injured a couple of times. Afterwards he did have nightmares etc. mainly he said because he felt guilty at surviving! His wife one day said look enough is enough - either sort yourself out or I will leave you! I said gosh that was a bit harsh? He simply said well I felt I could not allow that so got myself back on track as quickly as I could. And he did, on his own. So in his case the short sharp shock worked!
All in all a very difficult subject. It is refreshing to see though that there is overall increasing recognition of our service people today because we did go through a period when to wear a (service) uniform, was almost hideous in the minds of the Guardian reading muesli munching renegade liberals. Not that there is anything wrong in reading the Grauniad (do myself occasionally) one must just NOT take it seriously.
Following on from above. My brother-in-law served in Afghanistan, he came home a changed man. It was not the combat that changed him; he actually enjoyed it. The issue for him was the uncertainty and worry of stepping on an IED and loosing a leg or worse, this really had an effect on his nerves. He survived his time out there and is now working for British Gas. Having spoken to him about his time in Afghanistan, it is clear that the British Army takes these concerns very seriously and tries to give the squaddies all the reassurances they need in relations to medical care in the field, hospital treatment and post operational integration if the individual did loose a limb. In his regiment there was councillor specifically for squaddies to talk to if they so wished. My B-in-L did not use this and suffered in silence, to which he now confirms was a mistake.
My B-in-L like me has a keen interested in the RAF, he specialises in the 2 TAF. Over a few pints down our local we have discussed fear and death ( cheerful night that was ) , my B-in-L never thought he was ever going to be killed, the training knocked that out of him, but the overriding fear and terror was loosing his legs or worse. But he like the very great majority of servicemen out there just got on with it. He does not consider himself brave, (I think he is) and he certainly does not feel that he did anything out of the ordinary ( I think he did ). To him, the aircrew of WWII are the brave ones and deserve all the accolades. He thinks theirs was a different type of bravery, I disagree. However there are two things he has a strong opinion on. Firstly that in a close knit group whether a squadron or a Battalion the first sign of an individual outwardly showing signs of nervous fatigue, they should be removed immediately. He talks from experience here, it did have an effect on him when individuals were noticeably scared and holding back, fear he says feeds on fear. The second point is that these individuals were never considered cowards by their mates just that they reached their limit quicker than others.
My B-In-L however makes an interesting point, he feels that his approach would not have worked in the British Army during WW1 or WW2, mentally the men were tougher and expected harsher treatment. Tough was a way of life and most had a tough life, a more “touchy feely ” approached would have been seen as a sign of weakness.
I am happy that my B-in-Law is home safe, the change in him is positive, he now enjoys life and very little upsets him ( other than loosing to Australia on Saturday ). The things that used to annoy him now don’t ( this includes me ! )
Steve,
I found that very heartening and quite touching in a way and those who know me will affirm that I am far from being an emotional type. Your B in L has I think got it just right. We all have had our pet fears - losing limbs - being blinded, crippled etc. Dealing with it is the test. I certainly agree about the chaps who became fearful being removed - good for everyone's sake - in any combat area you have to have complete confidence in your comrades.
I thus respect your B in L greatly and wish him the absolute best.
I agree with the fact that these men had to be removed from contact with all others around them. It's the totally unfair and degrading "Lacks Moral Fibre" tag i dislike.
There is no paralell in warfare, to such courage and determination in the face of danger, over so long a period. Such devotion, should never be forgotten.
People held different "values" and there was certainly no political correctness. Drill Instructors could freely abuse (verbally) the recruits, children at school could be picked on and and shown up in front of a class, caned or slapped, given the slipper and generally treated in a fashion that would give the liberals of today heart failure. But I am convinced (because I was there) it did us no harm and probably made us more confident and able and probably most importantly we were aware of the value of discipline and having respect for oneself and others: pride in ones appearance and what one did. Such a culture is not so apparent to me today. Maybe LMF tag was wrong - I am not entirely sure but I am convinced we have now gone far too far in the wrong direction.
I wonder if those who support todays relaxed society are partially influenced by the notion they could not cope with it how it was - in fact they lack the strength of character perhaps?
My father served in both Korea and the Suez, he was a National Servicemen who opted to stay in the Army. My father’s opinion of LMF was dictated by his father’s beliefs, he served in the Royal Horse Artillery in the Great War. Both have a very harsh opinion (looking from a 2013 perspective) on this subject. My father had never been out of London (excluding being sent to family in Essex during the Blitz) before he was called up. He was in his own words rather naïve and “green”. Within a few days of being sent to Wales for his basic training he found a fellow new recruit hanging from the beams in the ablutions one morning. I asked him what he did on discovering the body and was rather shocked at the reply, “I had a shave with the hot water before it all went “. I was amazed at this attitude, initially I thought what a callus bustard but after I realised that he had lived through a war and had seen terrible sights daily and this had toughened him up mentally.
My Grandfather who served in the Royal Horse Artillery told my father how on one occasion he cried for hours on seeing the lead horse on his gun carriage bleed to death, but never cried when one of his close friends was killed in an artillery barrage. Looking at these two incidents from a 2013 perspective is impossible, different times.
My father’s opinion on LMF is simple, in times of war, the peace time mentality does more harm than good. He took great strength in firm, decisive and forthright action, just like his father. I spoke to him this evening on the subject, he is 83 and he told me regardless of what situation you are in, you are only as strong as your weakest link, if it is weak or looking like it will break, remove it immediately. He says it was simple - self preservation, he did not care about the other fellow, but he did want a fighting chance of coming through, a guy who sat in his fox hole afraid to come out and fight put his (my fathers) life at risk, it angered my dad that this other chap was not only afraid to fight for himself but for those around him.
He also went on to say that civilians seem more concerned about the cowardice stigma than the armed services did.
