Harris Vindicated?

[smudgersmith218]

Dear Bob,

I disagree with the majority of what you say, however the one issue we are in total agreement is that the real hero’s are those aircrew and ground crews who served within the ranks of Bomber Command.

Regards

Steve

Dear Steve,

People tend to view the tactics of war differently, some become very
very embarrassed when civilian war production workers are killed, but
tend to forget that those male and female workers are producing ammunition
and weapons to kill their enemies, and in Germanys case it was us and our allies.

You have mentioned oil installations not being bombed, but what about
about the German Motor Industry that were producing tens of thousands of
trucks, like Mercedes, Man, Opel, Magirus –Deutz, General Motors, and
Ford Werke Koln, and the factories producing tanks and armoured cars, and
not forgetting Dunlop Tyres, who were all producing for the German war
effort. All these firms were targeted and flattened.

What use is synthetic oil and petrol, if you have no vehicles to put it in?
And what about the replacement vehicles for the eastern front to replace
the German losses which never arrived in sufficient numbers? Maybe
Bomber Harris had the right strategy and denied the 170 odd Divisions
fighting in Russia the means of fighting a mechanised war,and in doing
so assisted our Russian allies to defeat a massive opposition!

With greatest respect, we must all learn to respect that other peoples
opinion’s may differ from our own, otherwise it gives the impression
that one persons views on a subject is wrong and the others persons is
always correct.

Kindest Regards

Bob

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately Bomber Commands campaign will always be associated with the “indiscriminate” bombing of civilians, whether non military or military. Regrettably when the policy to which the command operated was primarily in the area bombing role, the accusation of “indiscriminate” bombing is in my opinion some-times justified and hard to argue against.Especially when the C-in-C actively championed it up until his death.

Bomber Command waged a bombing campaign it was up until mid 1944 capable and "successfully" able of undertaking given the bombing and navigational aids available, granted with some varing degree of success. This is no slight to the skill and courage of the crews. The successes of the Ruhr campaign and “devastation” of the Krupp’s Works and associated industries within the region was a prime example of what could have been achieved if consistent and selective targets had been attacked over a period of time. However, this was not the case as Hamburg was soon on the horizon, then the debacle of Berlin.

Individual targets you mention, such as Mercedes, Man, Opel, Magirus –Deutz, General Motors, and Ford Werke Koln were damaged or even some times destroyed, however very rarely were they the sole intended target, Bomber Command did not have the accuracy to attack individual factories in 1942-1943, they may have been hit given that specific districts were attacked in force. Not until late 1944 early 1945 were individual targets specifically identified and attacked by main force Bomber Command. Even then only No.5 Group and No.3 Group were given the task as independent groups to mark and bomb individual selected targets and not whole areas of cities.

Production of guns and vehicles, munitions, aircraft and tanks was not excessively effected by Bomber Commands attacks throughout 1943 and it was only in 1944 that with the assistance of the US 8th Air force these industries began to feel the effect of a prolonged campaign. In December 1944 during the Ardennes offensive the numbers of tanks, including new King Tigers took the Allies by complete and utter surprise. The Germans were able to carry out an operation of this magnitude by assemble large numbers of tanks, aircraft and associated equipment from factories that were for all intent and purposes flattened.
This offensive put the Allies in complete disarray, the vast majority were under the misapprehension that Germany’s war industry had basically come to a stand still due to bombing. They were wrong. One of the important factures built into this offensive was the capture of Allied fuel supplies, these would have to be captured intact along the way because the Wehrmacht was short on fuel. The General Staff estimated they only had enough fuel to cover one-third to one-half of the ground to Antwerp in heavy combat conditions. No engine can run without fuel or oil. Even German!!

Bob, I do respect your opinion, it is just I don’t agree with it. !!!! By my saying I don’t agree with you does not mean you’re wrong. That is democracy and thankfully this site gives its members the opportunity to voice their opinions, long may it continue.

I would love to have included statistical details and prime source material; however I am in work, writing from memory and should be working on a report for the director

[Bob Wilton]

I agree with Bob, he reflects the sentiments of I believe the aircrew involved.
Churchill quicly removed any commanders not toeing his line'.Harris was a commander capable of making his case.

We tend to overlook the fact that the Luftwaffe had already perfected terror bombing in it's Blitzkreigs of the European open targets. Doubtless these tactics influenced others. I believe that the early devastation of the Clyde was so shocking that it was kept secret until the wars end so as not to frighten people.

Dennis

Hello Dennis,

Your expert comments on this matter are very much appreciated. I fully agree with
you that Churchill removed any commander that did not toe his line.

Politicians are the armed forces worst enemies as they interfere in matters they are not qualified to make judgment on. It is my firm view that our high ranking Military Commanders in war should be left alone to do their jobs which they are highly trained in.

Churchill was a mere 2nd Lieutenant in the Boer War, and later resigned his commission to become a war correspondent. So my point is, he was not qualified to make military decisions as he lacked the experience and training of a Staff Officer,
which was a position he never held. As said, he got rid of the military commanders who wouldn’t toe his political line, and it could be said the ones he listened to were his political puppets. It was Churchill’s idea for the Gallipoli campaign,and the ill-fated Dieppe raid and we all know what a fiasco they turned out to be.What a waste of good lives!

Sir Arthur Harris was the best man this country had, as he wasn’t a political puppy
and ignored the so called political masters and did what was best for the men and women under his command, and smashed the German war machine into the dust and rubble where is justly belonged.


Regards



Bob

[Bob Wilton]

Dear Bob,

I disagree with the majority of what you say, however the one issue we are in total agreement is that the real hero’s are those aircrew and ground crews who served within the ranks of Bomber Command.

Regards

Steve

Dear Steve,

People tend to view the tactics of war differently, some become very
very embarrassed when civilian war production workers are killed, but
tend to forget that those male and female workers are producing ammunition
and weapons to kill their enemies, and in Germanys case it was us and our allies.

You have mentioned oil installations not being bombed, but what about
about the German Motor Industry that were producing tens of thousands of
trucks, like Mercedes, Man, Opel, Magirus –Deutz, General Motors, and
Ford Werke Koln, and the factories producing tanks and armoured cars, and
not forgetting Dunlop Tyres, who were all producing for the German war
effort. All these firms were targeted and flattened.

What use is synthetic oil and petrol, if you have no vehicles to put it in?
And what about the replacement vehicles for the eastern front to replace
the German losses which never arrived in sufficient numbers? Maybe
Bomber Harris had the right strategy and denied the 170 odd Divisions
fighting in Russia the means of fighting a mechanised war,and in doing
so assisted our Russian allies to defeat a massive opposition!

With greatest respect, we must all learn to respect that other peoples
opinion’s may differ from our own, otherwise it gives the impression
that one persons views on a subject is wrong and the others persons is
always correct.

Kindest Regards

Bob

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately Bomber Commands campaign will always be associated with the “indiscriminate” bombing of civilians, whether non military or military. Regrettably when the policy to which the command operated was primarily in the area bombing role, the accusation of “indiscriminate” bombing is in my opinion some-times justified and hard to argue against.Especially when the C-in-C actively championed it up until his death.

Bomber Command waged a bombing campaign it was up until mid 1944 capable and "successfully" able of undertaking given the bombing and navigational aids available, granted with some varing degree of success. This is no slight to the skill and courage of the crews. The successes of the Ruhr campaign and “devastation” of the Krupp’s Works and associated industries within the region was a prime example of what could have been achieved if consistent and selective targets had been attacked over a period of time. However, this was not the case as Hamburg was soon on the horizon, then the debacle of Berlin.

Individual targets you mention, such as Mercedes, Man, Opel, Magirus –Deutz, General Motors, and Ford Werke Koln were damaged or even some times destroyed, however very rarely were they the sole intended target, Bomber Command did not have the accuracy to attack individual factories in 1942-1943, they may have been hit given that specific districts were attacked in force. Not until late 1944 early 1945 were individual targets specifically identified and attacked by main force Bomber Command. Even then only No.5 Group and No.3 Group were given the task as independent groups to mark and bomb individual selected targets and not whole areas of cities.

Production of guns and vehicles, munitions, aircraft and tanks was not excessively effected by Bomber Commands attacks throughout 1943 and it was only in 1944 that with the assistance of the US 8th Air force these industries began to feel the effect of a prolonged campaign. In December 1944 during the Ardennes offensive the numbers of tanks, including new King Tigers took the Allies by complete and utter surprise. The Germans were able to carry out an operation of this magnitude by assemble large numbers of tanks, aircraft and associated equipment from factories that were for all intent and purposes flattened.
This offensive put the Allies in complete disarray, the vast majority were under the misapprehension that Germany’s war industry had basically come to a stand still due to bombing. They were wrong. One of the important factures built into this offensive was the capture of Allied fuel supplies, these would have to be captured intact along the way because the Wehrmacht was short on fuel. The General Staff estimated they only had enough fuel to cover one-third to one-half of the ground to Antwerp in heavy combat conditions. No engine can run without fuel or oil. Even German!!

Bob, I do respect your opinion, it is just I don’t agree with it. !!!! By my saying I don’t agree with you does not mean you’re wrong. That is democracy and thankfully this site gives its members the opportunity to voice their opinions, long may it continue.

I would love to have included statistical details and prime source material; however I am in work, writing from memory and should be working on a report for the director

Dear Steve,

Hi Steve,

I do not believe RAF Bomber Command can be blamed for doing their job.Are you saying that these civilians should have not been bombed so they could carry on making artillery shells to kill our men? I say that they were as big a threat to the continuation of the war as the German forces in uniform .It seems that you are very worried that civilians are killed in war and I respect your views on the subject. Maybe the thought of killing a fellow human being repulses you, and I can agree with that too! Bomber Harris and the men under his command had a job to do and they did their job extremely well.

Have you every read about Dresden's arms industry that flourished in the knowledge
that the city had never been bombed. Or have you ever wondered why the Nazi Government moved their factories so far east.If you read about the reasons why,then
you might look at things in another light,and why it became a legitimate target.And why the inhabitants of other German cities who were flocking there from the advancing Russians.

You mention the Ardennes (Battle of the Bulge) and yes the Germans did introduce
their new Tiger. The rest of their armour is what had escaped the Falsies Gap and what they transferred from the Eastern Front. They certainly caught the Americans by surprise didn’t they as they had left green inexperienced troops in the area.

Glad that you agree about the German motor industry being flattened, but did you know that Henry Ford didn’t want his German investment bombed? And had the bottle to ask for war damages after the war, and got them!

You say that in 1944 that with the assistance of the USAAF that the munitions, aircraft,vehicle factories began to feel the affect of the joint bombing, but what I cannot understand is your view to that the joint bombing of Dresden's arms industry is any different from those in the Ruhr. Are you saying that Dresden should not have been bombed, or are you objecting to the practice of dropping incendiaries on the city which had been dropped on many other legitimate targets before? Or is it that the bombing caused the German war industry workers to be killed?

Steve, I do respect your opinion too, and fully agree that we should voice our opinions,
as long as they never cause direct offence to other member's.

Regards

Bob

[smudgersmith218]

Morning Bob,

You have drawn your own conclusions to what I have said in my posts, if you care to read them again you will see that I have not said German civilians, should not have been bombed, or the crews of Bomber Command have anything to answer. It is the C-in-C who has in my opinion. I have read numerous books on the bomber offensive over the past 30 years and collected on the way numerous documents the majority of which are from primary sources held at the old PRO and now the NA. More importantly over that time I have been blessed with becoming friends with numerous air and ground crews, sadly the ranks are depleted, however their legacy for me is their honesty about their role and in "their" opinion the mistakes and triumphs of Bomber Command.

I cannot see any reference to Dresden in my posts not being a legitimate target, although I think the attack was more a political motivated decision then an attack on an industrial target.

I don't think I have any more to add to the subject Bob, other than I have enjoyed our discussion and respect your views, even if I don't agree with them.

Off for a strong black coffee

Regards

Steve

[Bob Wilton]

Dear Steve,

I have thought long and hard about what to reply to your last few replies and the only one that is suitable is that you are 'Opinionated "Always ready to express ones own opinion,and dismissive of other peoples" It is obvious that you are a person that is always right. Sadly,I have met many people of the same ilke as yourself,both in the Military, Civilian Occupation and Police Service and to be truthful feel very sorry for them as they lack the ability to consider other peoples points of view which is very sad indeed.Please do not be offended by my words,but in reading them I hope that you will see the error of your ways.I sincerly hope that you fully understand what I am saying to you and give it some thought!

Good Luck For The Future

Bob

[K4KittyCrew]

I thought it best to lock this post.
From time to time, we members will have different comments to make on certain 'posts' and at times, we may not always agree on how comments are made and or posted. So I think this 'post' has run it course and we can move on to other topics.
Cheers,
John