One for Denonline ....... Stirling Turret

[K4KittyCrew]

Here is probably the best photo of a Stirling turret I've seen to date. I'm sure Dennis would appreciate this photo. Cheers, mate.
Don't the two rear wheels stand out! ( Photo is from the Royal Air Force Museum. - Charles Brown Collection )
John

[Denonline]

John, a great photo,thanks. the photo gives the illusion that the wheels were almost underneath the turret whereas they were several feet forward,

Dennis

[PAFG]

...and just for completeness, a very rare photo of a well known rear gunner in his turret at HCU (well, at least he was...)

1 Stirling (411 x 600).jpg

Cheers,

Richard

[K4KittyCrew]

Richard, could it be that the Land Army ladies are missing from the drawing?
Kitty

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi

This is a useful picture for me too as I am modifying a 3D graphic of the Stirling and I notice that the tail navigation lamp light isn't central - but anyone know what the other 'blob' is on the right?


Cheers
James

[Denonline]

The other blob being the reliable Stirling u/c. as you know the gunner concerned fell out backwards. One can only assume that this is a second photo showing said gunner otherwise occupied. The bottom half of the photo being censored to spare the blushes of the innocent land army girls

Anon

[jamesinnewcastle]

Hi

Not sure about the reply!

I mean the little blob on the photo of the turret, almost directly under the right hand line of rivets.

It would be natural to put the light on the centre line of the aircraft but it is displaced for some reason.


Cheers
James

[K4KittyCrew]

James, you may want to read this post I made quite some time ago, regarding our good friend, Dennis. I trust this will give you a better understanding .............
John
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hi to all,

Not long ago, I mentioned about speaking with a ex crew member who flew in Lancasters and Stirlings.

When speaking about training accidents from HCU's, I mentioned that this gentleman had said that to help start the aircraft off on the right track, the rear gunner would swing his turret around and sight the tail wheel and send the 'ok' through to the skipper.

I completely misunderstood and misquoted the person that I was speaking with. Sorry for the balls-up. Rear tail wheel problems for the Lancasters weren't an issue, so I'm now told . For the Stirlings, they were an apparent fact of life.

I am told this from a gent by the name of Dennis Over from England. I have had the pleasure of knowing Dennis for the past year or so and have shared a few stories together.

Dennis flew two tours as a rear gunner, one with 106 Squadron and the other with 227 Squadron and has stated to me that I can quote him on the below details.

I would like to share with you all, some very special comments from Dennis that he recently emailed me................

Regarding "Violent Swings on Take Off" - Stirlings. Having twin manually retractable tail wheels. The wheels had tyres with special ridges to try and cure the problem of the wheels aligning, they were free castoring.

It was discovered that unless the wheels were aligned very straight at the start of the take-off, they would begin to oscilate getting more severe as speed increased, often causing the aircraft to swing off course at critical points. The cure was very effective. When the aircraft turned onto the runway, it first stopped, at which stage the rear gunner swung the turret to port, slid open the twin doors & with feet secured under the turret structure, leant right out and slightly down giving full view of the wheels, thus advising the skipper that "wheels in view". The Pilot then began slow forward movement gradually increasing speed & when the gunner called "wheels straight", take-off commenced. The gunner then had to promptly get back in and close his doors.

On one occasion, I made a fool of myself because at 1654 HCU, all spare land area was put under cultivation with the 'Land Army Girls'. A group of girls were standing alongside watching aircraft curcuits & bumps. I turned and waved etc. to them, leaning slightly back & promptly fell out, helped by the slipstream, leaving one boot behind. I was neither the first or the last to fall out. It was only a short drop. Control tower told my pilot after take-off but the mid upper gunner had already spotted me. They were instructed to carry on their training exercise.

Dennis says that he can only confirm that this instruction detail applied to trainee crews at 1654 HCU. He also confirmed that the Lancaster did not experience such problems being a one only tail wheel with a better oleo leg.

....................... We all read books and alike but details of such incidents like this from those who experienced it I find very special.
Regards,
John


Hi.
My name is Dennis Over, I have just been introduced for the first time to this site by John Pollard, the writer of the tail wheel situation. for which I thank him. I was the tail gunner involved.
Our second tour pilot Sqdrn.Ldr. Johnny Meagher was an instructor at 1654 HCU. between tours. Another friend Colin Watt from Adelaide also instructed there at the same time 1943-4..
The Stirling had some virtues & many vices. For example the RAF wanted certain modifications to increase performance but as production was too far advanced one compromise was to increase the length of the main undercarriage legs for a better take off performance. The planned wingspan of the a/c. being too wide for the standard RAF hangars, the wings were clipped thus giving a reduced service ceiling.

I am pleased to say that Colin & Johnny are still around, we remain close friends. Colin visits each year from Australia. We had our annual get-together just 3 weeks ago.
So much is going to pass unrecorded, the quality & quantity of historic information that those two keep on unfolding when we get our heads together is quite remarkable.
For example the a/c. that Gibson used on the Dams raid became tour expired & remained at Metheringham. Johnny Meagher became an instructor pilot there. This was the a/c. that he mainly used for checking out new pilots to the squadron & many other "Hack" duties. The Air Historic Branch requested & were given permission by Johnny to photostat his log books.
After his instruction period Colin was recalled to Australia VIA the USA where he converted to Liberators & joined an Australian squadron in the Far East campaign.
Coiln flew with an Australian Airline until his retirement. He was chosen to demonstrate & take the replica "Southern Cross" trimotor on it's tour of Australia & New Zealand. We have only just gleaned this info. from him.

Regards,
Dennis Over

[Denonline]

James, I was refering to the sketch sorry. There were aerials fitted to the tail area for enemy warnings etc. two of them being "IFF" indicator friend or foe & Monica warning system.

Dennis

[jamesinnewcastle]

Thanks Dennis

I'll have to look through my Stirling photo collection for them, details are always hard to pick out on the low contrast B&W images from that era. It's often hard to see the wingtip navigation lights for example so if you didn't know that they had to be there you might assume they weren't!

The three downward identification lights are another case in point, I only have one photo where they are very obvious - I'm still looking for the upward Ident light in any pics!

To make my 3D model look right I have looked at all the external lights on the Stirling and I count at least 15! The aircraft must have looked like a christmas tree with all that lot and the exhausts glowing and flaming (I'm told by a W/O). But of course you don't see the lights at all in the films and the photos for various reasons. You were there - how lit up were they? How lit up was the cockpit when viewed from other aircraft?

Cheers
James