Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

honeybee
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Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by honeybee »

Hi
Hope this is the right place to post a question. I am in contact with the Great Grandaughter of Robert Matthew Urwin and I have managed to find out quite a bit about him in an attemt to write a short history of his war record up to his death in March 1943, which I intend to give her as a present at her wedding next year.. She told me that she had information to say he completed 37 operations and so I thought it would be a simple task to download the ORBs for the period he served on 7 Squadron,which I did. However, between the 13th September 1942 and 25th February 1943 he vanishes into thin air. When he does reappear he is part of W/C Mahaddies crew with whom he does 5 ops before being posted missing on the sixth. Can some one tell me whether I have not got all the ORBs or are there other records that can bring to light what he did during this missing period. The ORBs I have for this period consist of two parts for each month, one giving an overview of the squadron during that particular month and the other listing the a/c and crews for the particular raids they undertook. I have not had much luck searching the internet in his name. Thanks in advance for any help,
Regards
Paul.
jamesinnewcastle
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by jamesinnewcastle »

Hi

If the dates on the ORBs are contiguous or near enough then you probably do have all of them. I think that they are numbered as 540 and 541, as you say one of those is an summary of the missions, usually who, what A/C and where, the other is a summary of what happened at the airfield itself. I think that they are 'monthly' reports.

Did you know that a close relative can apply for the individuals 'service record' ? This is a summary of the individuals location and job function. So if, say, Robert was sent on a course in the times that you can't locate him, then it may be noted in his record. His record would be of interest too I imagine. You don't need to be a close relative but you don't get as much detail.

Do the rest of his crew also 'disappear'? He may have been ill but they would probably have been allocated a substitute crew member. If his crew also disappeared then it adds to the evidence of what may have happened.

I am tracking one particular crew and they 'disappear' for a whole month, but then they did crash land and get bombed just before that so they may have been on some sort of recovery leave.


James
honeybee
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by honeybee »

Hi JamesinNewcastle

I have seen the records that the Great Grandaughter has and there isn't much though she did find out some other items she was unaware of. Nope to the crew, they all appear as a crew during this period and they all appear on ops, was thinking he may have been ill or injured but I have located 19 ops and 3 aborts, it's the fact she thinks he did 37, I have another 18 to find. The Ryton memorial led her to this number but on just checking I find that it also mentions a crash he had in England that she knows nothin about. Any idea how I go about finding a crash he survived? It must have been a training flight. Thanks for the answer,
Regards
Paul
jamesinnewcastle
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by jamesinnewcastle »

Hi Paul

I'm not quite clear if you have his personal RAF record? This is a specific RAF form which you would have had to apply for - I don't think that they were just handed out to the families. Have you seen this?

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... c-rnas.htm

or this

https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-persona ... ce-records

I'm not sure if training flight crashes would be noted on the ORB's, perhaps someone else could answer that one.

In theory you should be able to find in the ORBs when he joined any particular squadron and when he left - that is either by transfer or by death (well, at least I can track my crew like that and they were also in 7 Squadron but in 1941) However the ORBs were written by individuals and you can readily see a difference in the descriptions and content between stations so its not set in stone. I think that that listing might only occur once a year so if you don't have a wide enough range of ORBs you might not find it.

Normally the crew tended to stay together, if the rest of his crew did and he 'disappeared' for a while then rejoined them it does suggest that he was either ill or on a course - I'm assuming that he rejoined his original crew? They probably would have flown training courses together too.

You could take a sledge hammer approach and determine all the aircraft at the station up to the point he disappeared and then see if any aircraft also disappear at the same time - if so you can apply to the RAFM for the service record of that aircraft to see if it crashed or had a major repair.

If there were a crash you can apply to the RAFM for an AM180 form - this gives details of crashes and certainly training flights would be recorded - perhaps if you gave the RAFM a date range and the squadron they may be able to sort for any AM180s. The AM180 would document the incident and state '1 injured' for example.

If his aircraft were in a training accident there would probably be a Court of Inquiry report for the crash - that's a dead end though as most of these were burnt apparently. Just mentioned that for completeness!

Just some ideas!


James
honeybee
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by honeybee »

Hi JamesinNewcastle
I have found that the crew suffered a crash at Waterbeach when they overshot the runway, even got the a/c serial and sqd codes. However, this was in July '42 and they went on to further ops. He disappears in Sept '42 and reappers in Jan '43 as part of Hamish Mahaddies crew. Not sure yet what happened to his own crew, still looking for that. His G/Granddaughter sent off for his record but got little back other than training, transfer to 101 Squadron, and eventually to 7 and ultimately his death, was just two pages. I just don't know how to get those four months. The crash mentioned on the Ryton Memorial site must have been the one at Waterbeach, they lost their engineer injured in the crash. I checked the ORNs and they are consecutive so no help their. Thanks for taking the time to help out, it's appreciated,
Regards
Paul
jamesinnewcastle
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by jamesinnewcastle »

Hi Paul

So his crew have disappeared and only he reappears - that does sound rather like a crash in which he is the only survivor! Possibly a transfer where only he decides to return for some reason. The captain of my crew disappeared for a few months when he became the airfields Navigation Officer.

I'm out of ideas except perhaps if you could find the crews RAF numbers, then check against burial,s discharges, etc. You may not even need the numbers - it may be that you can just search one of the family history sites just for their names and eliminate the unlikely ones, I found one of my crew on such a site. Or possibly check for what I have assumed is a standard 'end of year role call'. I'll check what month they were included in the No7 Sqdn ORBs I have and post a copy.


Cheers
James
honeybee
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by honeybee »

Hi James
His crew were posted missing 9th Nov 1942, that still means he was missing from that crew for 2 month and then a further 2 months before he reappears. I have tried the name method and found nothin yet, I will keep on looking,
Regards
Paul
jamesinnewcastle
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by jamesinnewcastle »

Hi Paul

I used Forces Reunited. Looks all Army but it covers the RAF too. I

http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/

(Don't let the site redirect you! Use that particular page as it does a search and other pages do not!)

I found a Robert Matthew Urwin in the RAFVR in 1943 pretty quickly - but I don't have the names of your crew.

I got the AM180 wrong - it's AM1180 - an example of a card that would have been raised:

http://homepages.force9.net/tuxford/met ... /page4.htm


James
honeybee
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by honeybee »

Hi
James
I used the page you linked, all the info for all the crew is the same. To be fair earlier this week I tried to look up my grandfather but he isn't in their data base. Had I been able to look at what info there was before I paid my £9 fee I wouldn't have bothered. I am interested in the cards, I presume the RAFM is the museum at Hendon, is that right? If so I will get on to them,
Regards
Paul
jamesinnewcastle
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Re: Flight Sergeant Robert Matthew Urwin. 7 Squadron

Post by jamesinnewcastle »

Hi Paul

Yes, the RAFM is the Museum at Hendon. I checked up on the ORBs and it seems that rather spontaneously there are lists of crew coming and going in the July and August 1941 ORBs - not sure if that continued but it looks as if it wasn't necessarily a once a year thing.

James
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