F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

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CharlesNWT
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F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by CharlesNWT »

Hello all,

I hope this is the right place to post this. I am doing research into my late grandfather's service during World War II and have hit some walls with my research. I have done a fair amount of research so far, and am continuing to do so, but I am hoping that

Here is what I have confirmed:
- Service Number 164600. (source: London Gazette)
- He wore an Observer brevet on his uniform, and that he went through Officer Cadet training as indicated by a white insert in his Field Service cap. (source: Family Photos)
- I have record of him being appointed to either Pilot Officer or Flying Officer on September 24, 1944; and later Flt. Lt. March 24, 1946. This coincides with the record of events as described in my grandfather's letters. (source: London Gazette)

Here is what I believe to be true but cannot confirm:
- That he served as a Navigator with 630 Squadron at RAF East Kirkby. He even recalled the incident of April 17, 1945 were a bomb was accidentally detonated on the tarmac. His letters also indicated that he was due to begin training on the Avro Lincoln in anticipation of joining the war in the Pacific/Japan, but that ended with Japan's surrender. (source: Grandfather's Letters).

Now, to where I have problems.

I have the Record of Events from the Operational Record Books for 630 Squadron (November 1943 - April 1945) and some for 57 Squadron from the National Archives, and am in the process of getting the Summary of Events. So far I cannot find any mention of him. I have looked through all crew positions, and not just Navigators in order to be thorough. I did find a crewman Sgt. E Sanders (Navigator), but that is the closest I have come so far.

I was talking with another researcher, who indicated that if he was wearing an Observer brevet, that he would not be listed as a Navigator, and instead would have served as an observer alongside the Navigator; and that Observers typically were posted to Path Finder Force Squadrons. In looking at the Record of Events, I can find no mention of an observer serving on any aircrew with 630. To make matters more interesting/confusing some more anecdotal recollections from my family members have my grandfather serving with the PFF or on Mosquitos. However, my grandfather's letters contradict this belief.

The questions I would like to put out to this forum are:

- Would the Summary of Events contain reference to aircrew not listed in the Record of Events?
- Would Observers be listed as Navigators, especially if they filled this role? Personally I believe if they served as a Navigator, they would have been listed as a Navigator.
- Are there any other ways to find out non-aircrew listings for RAF squadrons.
- Finally, and the most obvious, has anyone come across mention of a Victor Sanders in their own research? Only if it springs to mind, I don't want to have people going out of their way to do research that I can be doing myself, just anything that can point me in a good direction.

I will attempt to access records from the MOD, but as a Grandson I am not sure I fit the criteria of next of kin.

Sorry if this rambled on too much.

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.

Charles Sanders
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K4KittyCrew
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by K4KittyCrew »

Hello Charles and welcome to the forum.

I read with interest about your grandfather flying with 630 squadron ............ my father too, flew with 630 squadron.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1439

I too, have the 630 squadron operational record books and will look to see what I can find. As you say, one would expect to see Navigators listed as Navigators but we have some good researchers / members here who maybe able to assist.

'Alan W' ........ a fellow moderator, has a very good collection of records and information but as listed on another thread, he is off site at present, having had a small fire at home. I also hoping that his records are still intact.

Until then,
Regards,
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
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PeteT
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by PeteT »

Charles

Just a few bits and pieces that may help your research and clarify a few points:

My understanding is that when the RAF initially introduced a person to "navigate the aircraft" he was trained in the aircrew category of "air observer". As the role evolved and the air bomber was introduced (1942), the aircrew category of "air observer" was changed to "navigator". As the war progressed, there were various navigator roles / categories introduced, so some aircraft (eg some of the Pathfinder aircraft) had multiple navigators or "navigation teams" on board. It may be that this is what "your other researcher" was referring to when saying "he would have served as an observer alongside the navigator". However, if your grandfather did fly operationally in a navigational role he would have been listed in the crew list in No. 630 Squadron's Record of Events irrespective of whether he was trained as an "observer" or as a "navigator".

As he was commissioned as an officer, his posting in and out dates, or any promotions, may well appear in No. 630 Squadron's Summary of Events . If you can find these dates it may well show his service number and you may be able to work out whether the "E Sanders" shown in the crew listing is in fact your grandfather (as there were many typo's in the ORBs, as I know from my own research experience)

The white insert in his cap denoted that he was "aircrew in training" (not officer cadet, as you suggest) ... the reason this is important is that not all aircrew categories (eg air gunners and flight engineers) were commissioned as officers at the end of their training but they still wore the white cap insert during training.

I would recommend obtaining his service record, asking his next of kin to apply if you can so that you get the maximum amount of information about his service.

Good luck with your research

Regards

Pete
Last edited by PeteT on Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Researching:
CA Butler, flight engineer Lancaster ME334 (KIA over Bonn with 35 PFF on 4th Febuary 1945) http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/
Ground Crew and Aircrew Training WWII
"The History of No 35 Squadron" http://35squadron.wordpress.com/
CharlesNWT
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by CharlesNWT »

Thank you John and Pete, this really helps a lot.

I now have the Summary of Events and am slowly making my way through the postings, and thanks for the correction on the white insert as well!

Sorry to here about Alan W's fire, I hope everyone involved is safe and healthy.

The Service Record would clear things up a bit, and will have to work on seeing if I can get that.

Thanks for all your help on this one, I will keep you posted on what I find.

Charles

EDIT: I have found F/O J.C. Sanders (164600) listed as being posted to 630 Squadron in April 1945.

Thank you guys very much for pointing me in the right direction!
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PeteT
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by PeteT »

Charles

Does it show where he was posted in from?

If you look to see who was posted in with him you may be able to work out whether E Sanders = JC Sanders = VC Sanders!

The reason I suggest this is that he may have been part of a crew that was transferred in "en-masse" either from training or from another operational squadron.

I have the April 1945 ORB which shows that E Sanders flew with A McLean so did he and the other members of that crew get posted in at the same time (bearing in mind that postings in will only show the officers in the crew, not the sergeants such as the air gunners and flight engineer).

Regards

Pete

UPDATE: [Sorry: Put wrong pilot name in initially, but have corrected it now]
Researching:
CA Butler, flight engineer Lancaster ME334 (KIA over Bonn with 35 PFF on 4th Febuary 1945) http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/
Ground Crew and Aircrew Training WWII
"The History of No 35 Squadron" http://35squadron.wordpress.com/
CharlesNWT
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by CharlesNWT »

Hi Pete,

It doesn't show where he was posted from (to my knowledge).

I am pretty sure that E. Sanders and J.C. Sanders are different as F/O McLean and Sgt. E. Sanders both posted in around the same time (October/November '44). F/O J.C. Sanders also match my grandfather's service number (164600).

I've attached the excerpt from April's Summary of Events, if that helps.

Charles
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PeteT
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by PeteT »

Charles

It is a shame that the Monthly Summary does not show any more details about the posting in; somehow we need to establish where he was posted in from. As it is not in the ORB, we are only left with his service record or his flying log book, unless someone out there in the ether has a snippet of information that may provide a lead.

I agree that E Sanders can be eliminated, so unless the Record of Events for May 1945 show otherwise, it would appear that your grandfather did not fly operationally with No. 630 Squadron between the time he was posted in and the end of the war.

I do not know if crew listings were recorded for the Squadron's post-war operations (as the completion of the ORBs varied from squadron to squadron) but if they were it would be worth ploughing through those to see if he is mentioned.

Just to add another piece of information into the pot: His original service number of 1198135 suggests that he enlisted at Cardington some time between April 1940 and April 1941. (My best guess would be during the summer of 1940)

Regards

Pete
Researching:
CA Butler, flight engineer Lancaster ME334 (KIA over Bonn with 35 PFF on 4th Febuary 1945) http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/
Ground Crew and Aircrew Training WWII
"The History of No 35 Squadron" http://35squadron.wordpress.com/
CharlesNWT
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by CharlesNWT »

Well this has been an interesting journey.

I will go down the route of trying to access the Service Record, and will provide an update with whatever information I can find. I'm not sure about the Log Book, if that is something he would have kept with him after the war, I suspect it is probably lost or inaccessible to me.

I would like to thank you guys for input and suggestions, it has been of great assistance.

Charles
CharlesNWT
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Re: F/O Victor Charles Sanders 630 Squadron

Post by CharlesNWT »

EDITED UPDATE:

F/O V.C. Sanders 164600 was posted out of 630 Squadron in June 1945. Also posted out at that time were:
- W/O P. Frampton (Pilot)
- F/S W. Taylor (Pilot)
- Sgt. H. Husband (WOP/A)
- Sgt. R.M. Duncan (A/Gnr)

I did find a F/O W. Sanders who served as a Navigator for 57 Squadron (also East Kirkby). He was part of the crew from F/O P. Frampton who flew in two "Dodge" Operation flights (01/07/45 & 28/09/45). The list of the crew are as follows:
- F/O P. Frampton (Pilot)
- F/Sgt. W. Taylor (F/E)
- F/O W. Sanders (Nav)
- F/Sgt. K. Guest (A/B)
- Sgt. H. Husband (W/OP)
- Sgt. R. Duncan (R/G)

Based on this, I suspect that the F/O W. Sanders listed in the ORB for 57 Squadron is my grandfather Victor Sanders. However, I cannot figure out when F/O W. Sanders was posted to the unit as the Summary of Events between April and August all state "Personnel Occurrence reports for this month are attached", but are not included in the Summary of Events. So, without that information to confirm that, this is all speculation unfortunately.
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