Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

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North of 60
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Re: Have Service Record, Need more info

Post by North of 60 »

Bruno wrote:
North of 60 wrote:From what I can gather from the records (PDF of pertinent sections available, if this would be any help), he arrived at 3 PRC 2 Sep 43, then eventually through P.T.S. (Pilot Training School ?) Ringway and 42 O.T.U. to 296 Sqn on 20 August 44.
He was then attached to HGCU from O & RTU from 18 Sep to 1 Dec 44. Seemingly in the middle of this, he is attached to Fairford (26/10/44), and then TOS 1665 HCU on 4/12/44.
From there, he seems to go to 38 Grp W.T.S. (Wireless Training School ?) on 18/2/45 until he goes to 299 Sqn on 6/3/45.
There are a couple of unreadable entries, picking up again when he seems to come back to Canada 23/7/45.

There are a couple of abbreviations that I can't seem to figure out - on 7/7/44 there is an entry " GTBD (might not be D) from ORTU to 42 OTU "
Then on 4/3/45 the entry read " C + BA 38 Grp WTS ".
I have no idea what those two entries mean.
Chris Garven
Inuvik, NT, Canada
Hello,

Thanks to the help of Joss Leclercq here is the meaning of some the abbreviations:

PRC is Personnel Reception Centre, a place where people in transit would wait before starting a new course, especially after crossing the ocean. You knew when you left, not exactly when you would arrive, so there was some delay between them.

TOS : Taken on Strength (SOS : struck off Strength).

GTBD : Flying Training and Support Units since 1912, Sturtivant & Hamlin, Air-Britain, doesn't show this acronym. Closest is GTPS : Glider and Tug Pilots School. That would make sense for someone later posted to No. 38 Group.

WTS had a double meaning : Wireless Telephony School or Weapons Training Squadron. Probably the latter as the former disbanded in 1919.

To add: P.T.S is the Parachute Training School.

Here is for the moment.
Best regards.

Bruno
Thanks, Bruno and Joss, that helps a lot.

Looking at the record, it is definitely GTB The D is a little uncertain, however.
I will ask about that when I am at Kew at the end of the month.
I am assuming that OTU is Operations Training Unit or something similar.
I actually got a very good list of abbreviations from Library and Archives Canada. I will post it on here when I get a chance. That will probably be after I get back from the UK in early September.

The list of things to check at Kew and the Edinburgh Archives seems to be growing as the days get closer. I just found attestation papers for my biological grandmother's father (my dad was adopted) for the Canadian Expeditionary Force in Winnipeg. On the form, it states that he had been in the "Northumberland Fusiliers" for 5 years. That would have been prior to his coming to Canada, so sometime about 1895 to 1912. Now I have to find out if Kew has paybooks or other records for the Fusiliers.

Exponential growth of tasks!

Again - thanks for the help.

Chris in Inuvik, NWT, Canada
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Bruno
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by Bruno »

Hi Chris,

OTU means Operational Training Unit.
42 OTU was a 38 Group Unit where Glider Tug Pilots where trained on Whitley, Bleinheim and Albemarle Aircraft before being posted to 38 Group Squadrons.
1665 Heavy Conversion Unit was also a 38 Group Unit where crews converted to the Halifax and the Stirling aircraft.
Best regards.

Bruno
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Andyc
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196 Squadron Stirling EH952 - 24/8/1943

Post by Andyc »

Hi,

I have just found your website and successfully registered.

My 87 year old father Sgt DH Canning was the A/B on 196 Squadron Stirling EH952 "A" flight which ditched off the Danish coast 24/8/1943. I understand this was the first Stirling 196 Squadron lost. I have for years been trying to find out the code for this particular aircraft "ZO - ? " Can anyone help please?

Also if anyone has photo's of this aircraft, any other 196 Squadron Stirlings or fellow airmen from 196 Squadron (1943) we would be very grateful if we could have copies.

The attached link gives details of my fathers "ditching" :
http://www.flensted.eu.com/19430086.shtml

Regards,
Andy Canning
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K4KittyCrew
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by K4KittyCrew »

Hi Andy and welcome to the forum.

I / we, will endeavour to track down the details you require. Will reply back soon.
Regards,
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
tonyb
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by tonyb »

Hi
Iam looking for information on the following person.

sgt john william SALMON 1864687

iNFORMATION I HAVE HE WAS WITH 1561HCU,HE DIED ON THE 11/12/44,ITHINK HE WAS AT WOOLFOX LODGE, AS THE HCU MOVED THERE IN THE NOVEMBER.I KNOW ON THAT DAY ANOTHER SIX CREW MEMBERS DIED ALSO , BUT I HAVE LOOKED UP FOR ANY CRASHERS THAT DAY BUT HAVE FOUND NO INFORMATION.ALSO NOT SURE IF IT WAS ASTIRLING OR LANCASTER AS THE SQDN DID CONVERT TO BUT NOT SURE WHENHOPE YOU CAN HELP US IN THIS MATTER
KIND REGARDS TONYB
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by K4KittyCrew »

Hi Tony and welcome to the forum,

These details come from Chorleys Bomber Command Loses, volume 8, ( Heavy Conversion Units ) page 152 -

11 Dec 1944 - 1651 HCU - Lancaster 1 - NG270 - 'Training'
Take off 18:52 hrs from Woolfox Lodge for a night navigation sortie, the weather being overcast with continuous slight rain and visibility down to 4000 yards. At 19:10 hrs, the bomber fell from the sky and crashed at, or near, Upton in Northhamptonshire . All were buried under private arrangements. Evidence from the crash site suggest the crew fell victim to very severe icing.

Crew lists -
F/O C L Makewell, KIA.
F/S J O Edwards, KIA.
F/O T M Watson, KIA.
F/O E R Turvey, KIA.
Sgt. A P T Henry, KIA.
Sgt. J W Salmon, KIA.
Sgt. E H Winter, KIA.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Footnote - The crew list suggests Sgt. J W Salmon was a 'Mid Upper Gunner'.

These details come from the 'Commonwealth War Graves Commission' site -

Casualty Details
Name: SALMON, JOHN WILLIAM
Initials: J W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 19
Date of Death: 11/12/1944
Service No: 1864687
Additional information: Son of Lily Salmon. of Birch.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Cemetery: BIRCH (ST. PETER) CHURCHYARD

Thats all I have at present Tony.
Regards,
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
tonyb
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by tonyb »

hello
just like to say thank you very much for the information on sgt john salmon,now i will have to start working backwards as i think he may have been at wratton common,but have been told now you have to write to raf cranwell for information on raf record.
kind regards tony
sospanfawr
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by sospanfawr »

Hi All,

I'm trying to research my Great Uncle's (Gwilym Powell) wartime record. He was a Flt Sgt (Nav) on a Short Stirling Aircraft and according to his CWGC grave he was killed on 19-05-1944 and was a member of 620 Sqn RAFVR. His service number was 1457467. The family folk lore says that he was killed whilst on practive manouevers for D-Day when two stirlings collided mid air after a drop.

Any information on him would be gratefully received.

Yours

Gareth James aka sospanfawr.
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by K4KittyCrew »

Hi Gareth and welcome to the forum.

Your query is proving to be quite a challenge. I have sourced 'Chorleys' Roll of Honour' volume 9, which lists all service personnel who lost their lives from 1939-47 and have come up blank. I will perserve and report back.
Regards,
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
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Re: Looking for information on Stirling Aircraft & Crews ?

Post by Bruno »

Hello all,

I have created a dedicated topic to answer to Gareth James aka sospanfawr about his Great Uncle Gwilym Powell of 620 Squadron.
Please follow this link:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39

Best regards.

Bruno LECAPLAIN
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