RAF Gun Turrets Collection
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
Tom, thanks for the photo but can't make heads or tails of the material that has replaced the perspex from the middle section.
John
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
John,
I wonder if the central perspex panel has been damaged in some way and been given a "temporary fix" ?
Has the turret undergone maintenance?....the ground crew affixing a cover to keep the perspex clean?
Or has the inside of the turret been insulated with some form of material whilst the aircraft is at dispersal?,.....then removed prior to take off?
Whatever the material is, ...if used on "Ops" it would have drastically reduced the rear gunners line of sight and therefore, this crews chances of survival
Tom
I wonder if the central perspex panel has been damaged in some way and been given a "temporary fix" ?
Has the turret undergone maintenance?....the ground crew affixing a cover to keep the perspex clean?
Or has the inside of the turret been insulated with some form of material whilst the aircraft is at dispersal?,.....then removed prior to take off?
Whatever the material is, ...if used on "Ops" it would have drastically reduced the rear gunners line of sight and therefore, this crews chances of survival
Tom
"Rule Britannia two tanners make a bob,three make eighten pence and four two bob"!
Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
That's the armour plating originally fitted on Lancasters but quickly dropped - mainly for improved visibility rather than weight saving. The steel plates concertinaed as the guns were depressed - Sydney Knott says you can tell in photos if the armour is still fitted, as the gens rest in the depressed position. With the armour removed, they rest pointing skywards (presumably through the greater weight of the breach end).
Richard
Richard
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
Many thanks Richard ....we would have been fumbling around in the dark for a while with this oneThat's the armour plating originally fitted on Lancasters but quickly dropped - mainly for improved visibility rather than weight saving.
Tom
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
Some lovely pictures on this subject, from those who are clearly well versed on the subject can you advise if all spent shells and clips from the Brownings always tumbled out and presumably down the two chutes to fall to the ground. I am assuming thats what they were for, was this to ensure the gunners floor was kept unobstructed. Any observations most welcome. Colin.
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
Hi Colin,colinpateman wrote:Some lovely pictures on this subject, from those who are clearly well versed on the subject can you advise if all spent shells and clips from the Brownings always tumbled out and presumably down the two chutes to fall to the ground. I am assuming thats what they were for, was this to ensure the gunners floor was kept unobstructed. Any observations most welcome. Colin.
I'm sure other members more informed than I will make comment on this but I tend to think the reason for the spent cartridge shells sliding down the chute are ..........
* So they don't obstruct the turret 'turning mechanism' from jamming.
* If the cartridges remained on the floor inside the turret, they would need to be cleaned out after each operation .......... would be a chore.
* It may be slight but with spent cartridges gone, means less weight in the aircraft.
Footnote - (My opinion only) .............. I am of the opinion that most gunners rarely used their guns. The gunners would only use their guns when they had no other choice.
Many a story of a gunner letting a enemy aircraft slip pass in the night without making it aware of them.
Consider this ............. A ME109 could shoot and hit it's target from around 400 metres whereas a RAF gunner could only return fire from about 300 metres.
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
Just wanted to ask a question to Dennis and any other ex crew gunners/ members.
Did you happen to clean your turret just before take off ?
( keep in mind that darkness, rain, snow, etc would have made it impossible )
That brings me to think that maybe this photo was purely for publicity purposes. Also that most ops would have been starting off in darkness or thereabouts?
John
Did you happen to clean your turret just before take off ?
( keep in mind that darkness, rain, snow, etc would have made it impossible )
That brings me to think that maybe this photo was purely for publicity purposes. Also that most ops would have been starting off in darkness or thereabouts?
John
K for Kitty Crew - Winthorpe, 1661 HCU's - stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
" There is nothing glorious about war with the exception of those who served us so valiantly"
630 Squadron - East Kirkby
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
Hi All
Just a comment about spent cartridges and clips on the Stirling. These were ejected out of the aircraft by chutes from the rear gun but were collected in bags for the front and (I think) the dorsal guns. There were at times various ventral gun types - interesting to research and find out where they went on that one - probably straight down! They also had side firing guns at one point, again another option is in bags or all over the floor.
All of that is widely known but I assume that the arguments for collecting or not might include:
1. Where do the bits go when you chuck them out - you wouldn't want them going into engines, rear UC mechanisms or bomb bay door mechanisms?
2. If you keep them they are heavy and useless so why not chuck them out? Fly lighter, but not much.
3. If you keep them you can re-cycle them - important at that time
4. Over the floor means crew slipping and getting jammed where they shouldn't (not the crew - the cartridges)
5. I think that the rear gun had access to many more bullets than either of the other two main guns as these were fed in from boxes in the fuselage, not sure you could conveniently collect that many cartridges and clips in a bag anyway!
Probably some of my imaginings in that lot, but some ideas to think on.
James
Just a comment about spent cartridges and clips on the Stirling. These were ejected out of the aircraft by chutes from the rear gun but were collected in bags for the front and (I think) the dorsal guns. There were at times various ventral gun types - interesting to research and find out where they went on that one - probably straight down! They also had side firing guns at one point, again another option is in bags or all over the floor.
All of that is widely known but I assume that the arguments for collecting or not might include:
1. Where do the bits go when you chuck them out - you wouldn't want them going into engines, rear UC mechanisms or bomb bay door mechanisms?
2. If you keep them they are heavy and useless so why not chuck them out? Fly lighter, but not much.
3. If you keep them you can re-cycle them - important at that time
4. Over the floor means crew slipping and getting jammed where they shouldn't (not the crew - the cartridges)
5. I think that the rear gun had access to many more bullets than either of the other two main guns as these were fed in from boxes in the fuselage, not sure you could conveniently collect that many cartridges and clips in a bag anyway!
Probably some of my imaginings in that lot, but some ideas to think on.
James
Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
Hi James,
I think crew safety, prevention of jammed equipment and recycling might have been considerations in collecting clips/cartridges. Spent cartridges falling to earth certainly wasn't. Tee Emm had an article warning gunners to remember safety elevation in Air-to-Air firing exercise. that way, bullets reaching the ground were spent, not still propelled. There was another article encouraging them not to check guns by loosing off over the countryside from dispersals. So the Health & Safety rules were pretty lax
There's a photo in one of the Lanc at War books looking up to the rectangular window in the floor, behind the Air Bomber's blister. It's awash with spent cartridges, so I assume collection bags weren't standard fit for the FN5.
Cheers,
Richard
I think crew safety, prevention of jammed equipment and recycling might have been considerations in collecting clips/cartridges. Spent cartridges falling to earth certainly wasn't. Tee Emm had an article warning gunners to remember safety elevation in Air-to-Air firing exercise. that way, bullets reaching the ground were spent, not still propelled. There was another article encouraging them not to check guns by loosing off over the countryside from dispersals. So the Health & Safety rules were pretty lax
There's a photo in one of the Lanc at War books looking up to the rectangular window in the floor, behind the Air Bomber's blister. It's awash with spent cartridges, so I assume collection bags weren't standard fit for the FN5.
Cheers,
Richard
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Re: RAF Gun Turrets Collection
I don't think the Perspex cleaning shown in the picture was just for publicity purposes John, I know I've read about it but I can't find the reference right now. I was thinking about how filthy the screen gets on my motorbike and how, in certain light conditions it's then difficult to see through it. Clear vision is obviously paramount to gunners and pilots so I understand it was done on a regular basis to maintain the "edge" though I would expect it to be done by ground crew rather than aircrew, unless they're particularly zealous/conscientious.
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